针对无论男女均需入伍的征兵制，你有什么看法？
预计截至本世纪末，瑞士军队将难以征募到足够的入伍从军人员。因此，瑞士国防部目前正研究将女性和男性一同纳入服兵役或从事其他民役服务的方案。该方案被称为“以需求为基础的服役义务”。在欧洲范围内，目前要求国民不分男女均需入伍服役-即实行不分性别强制兵役制的国家是瑞典和挪威，这两个国家在性别平等的国际排名中也经常会占据榜首。
你认为瑞士是否已经为实行不分性别强制兵役制做好了充分准备？还是应该像某些批评人士所说的那样，在推行该制度之前，首先要解决其他领域-譬如工作场所或者儿童照顾托育方面-存在已久的男女不平等现象？
阅读文章 瑞士军队：你的困惑，我来解答
我支持征兵的妇女!
I support drafting women!
义务征兵制应该废除，我们应该改成职业军队，每个人都可以参加。一个扩大的、惩罚性较低的公务员制度反而会让任何人（甚至是外国人？）都有机会为社会服务并获得专业经验。
Bisogna abolire la leva obbligatoria e passare a un esercito professionista, al quale tutti avrebbero accesso. Un sistema allargato e meno penalizzante di servizio civile darebbe invece la possibilità a chiunque (anche gli stranieri?) di mettersi al servizio della collettività e guadagnare esperienze professionali.
我们也可以对妇女实行强制征兵：但我相信，这永远不会通过全民公投的关卡。这是一个心态问题，即使现在平等的女权主义正在盛行：然而，它仍然是有选择性的。也就是说：像作战士兵这样的危险和沉重的工作应该由男性来做。然而，妇女的强制性文职服务和只有选择性的战斗军事服务可以通过：只有在真正需要的情况下。
Si può anche introdurre la coscrizione obbligatoria per le donne: credo però che ciò non supererebbe mai lo scoglio del referendum popolare. È una questione di mentalità, anche se il femminismo paritario è ormai imperante: però rimane selettivo. Cioè: i lavoracci pericolosi e pesanti come il soldato da combattimento li facciano pure i maschi. Potrebbe passare però un servizio civile obbligatorio per le donne e un servizio militare da combattimento solo facoltativo: solo se veramente desiderato.
根据《瑞士刑法典》第181条--胁迫，强迫他人做某事是犯罪行为。瑞士刑法典》第181条--胁迫--强迫某人做某事是犯罪行为，特别是如果它违反了良心自由。
一个国家通过强制服务来约束自己的法律。而不是放弃民事服务，而是通过强迫妇女服役来扩大法律的约束。
从这个角度来看，首先应该对军队进行改革，使每个人都喜欢服兵役。
此外，当父亲和母亲必须去服兵役时，谁会关心孩子呢？即使在战时和战后，孩子也有权利与生身母亲和生身父亲在一起。75%的妇女都有孩子。因此，如果国家强迫妇女从事半强制性服务，那么为什么不为35岁还没有孩子的妇女服兵役呢？这可以为军队带来生活经验的积累。
According Art. 181 - Coercion - of the Switzerland Criminal Code it is criminal to force someone to do something. especially if it is against the freedom of conscience.
A state brakes it own law with a mandatory service. And instead of dropping the civilan service, the brake of law will be extended by forcing women to the service.
From this point of view, it would be good first reform the army so that close to every one prefer military service.
Further, when a father and a mother must go to the military service who cares about the children? A children shall have a right to be with its biological mother and its biological father even in time of war and after the war. 75% of the women have children. So if the state will force women to do a semi mandatory service, so why not military service for women which are 35 years old and have still no children? This could lead to a gain of life experience for the army.
从我的角度阅读评论，我看到的情况是这样的。很多人认为这个话题是独立的，好像它不会影响到生活中的其他部门。许多男人把性别平等问题归结为 "问题"，因为他们没有这些问题。另一些人则认为，只有男性必须服役是不公平的，所以我有一个问题，如果他们如此不满意，为什么男性必须服役？为什么不建立一支职业化的军队，只有想在军队工作的人才能服役，并取消强制培训？
Reading the comments from my point of view, here is what I see. A lot of people see this topic as independent as if it won't affect other sectors of life. Many men putting gender equality problem in "problems" because they don't have them. Others complying that's it is unfair that onlyen have to serve, so I got a question why do men have to serve if they are so unhappy with it? Why not have a professional army where only people who want to work in military do the service and abolish compulsury training ?
平等问题同时影响着男性和女性。
谁说所有男人都不乐意为保护国家和家庭而服兵役？
人们（男性和女性）有一条职业道路，可以报名成为职业军人，但这是一个完全不同的话题。 瑞士和其他大多数国家并不只依靠职业军人，因为永远都不够。
Equality problems affect both men and women.
Who says all men are unhappy to serve in the military to protect the country and their family?
There is a career path for people (men and women) who can sign up as professional soldiers but that is a totally different topic. Switzerland and most other countries do not rely on only Professional soldiers because there are never enough.
如果99%的妇女愿意从事民事服务，征召妇女服兵役并不能解决招募足够人员的问题。看来，军队必须首先进行自我重组，以解决招募到足够人员的问题。而这需要政治层面的变革，为军队设定新的边界条件。这在今天是不可能的。别的不说，今天的 "繁荣之光 "促使人们为其他国家工作，反对瑞士，反对和平。
A conscription of women to military service does not solve the trouble of recruiting enough personnel if 99% of the women prefer to do civilian service. It seems the army has first to reorganise itself to solve the trouble of recruiting enough personnel. And this require a change on political level to set new boundary condition for the army. This is today unlikely. And never mind the «prosperity blinding» of today which motivate people to work for other countries and against Switzerland and against peace.
> 如果99%的妇女愿意从事民事服务，征召妇女服兵役并不能解决招募足够人员的问题。
如果99%的男人都这样做，情况也是如此。而且，99%的妇女不太可能选择民事服务。
> A conscription of women to military service does not solve the trouble of recruiting enough personnel if 99% of the women prefer to do civilian service
Same is true if 99 % of men did that. And it is unlikely 99 % of the women will choose civilian service.
这倒是真的。
让我们来看看真实的数字。每年约有21'000名年轻人适合服役。约有6000人选择民事服务，即28%。其他72%的人服兵役。现在我们假设也有21'000名年轻女性适合服役。为了填补这一空白，28%的妇女会服兵役。但在其他国家，只有14%的人愿意服兵役。因此，军队中仍有14%的缺口。因此，从我的角度来看，为妇女提供强制性服务并不是解决这一问题的办法。
如果每个公民都能在军队、医院和教育系统中观察几个星期，以了解真实情况，那将是一件好事。
That's true.
Let's take real numbers. Every year about 21'000 young men are fit for a service. About 6'000 prefer civilian service 2021 so 28%. The other 72% do military service. Now let's assume also 21'000 young women are fir for a service. To fill the gap 28% of the women do military service. But regarding numbers from other countries maximum 14% would do military service. So there will be still a gap of 14% for the army. So a mandatory service for women is unfortunately not the solution for this topic from my point off view.
It would be good if every citizen spend a couple weeks as observer in the military service, in a hospital and in the education system just to know what is real going on.
当然，真正的平等包括权利和义务。男女之间的身体差异不是问题；在现代军队中，有很多角色不需要男性的力量。除了瑞典和挪威，一个经过战斗考验的 "性别中立 "军队的优秀例子是以色列--他们从1948年起就开始征召男女兵，而且在整个历史上，他们成功地击退了所有较大邻国的入侵。这本身就足以驳斥那些生活在18世纪、认为妇女不适合从军的人的所有幼稚想法。而且很抱歉，那些认为应该先解决工资差距或育儿问题的女权主义团体只是在做伪君子--目前只强加给男性的保家卫国的责任，是比这些问题（可以肯定的是，这些问题也必须得到处理）更严重的性别歧视。
Of course, true equality involves both rights and duties. Physical differences between men and women are not an issue; there are plenty of roles in a modern army that do not require the strength of a male. Besides Sweden and Norway, an excellent example of a battle-tested "gender neutral" army is Israel - they have been drafting both sexes since 1948, and they have successfully repelled all invasion by their larger neighbours throughout their history. This, in itself, is enough to debunk all childish ideas by people who live in the 18th century and think that women are not suited for the army. And sorry, but those feminist groups who think that salary gap or child care should be addressed first are just being hypocrite - the duty to defend the country, which is currently being imposed on men alone, is an incredibly more serious sexist discrimination than those issues (which have to be dealt with as well, to be sure).
我相信这将是一个很好的机会，对未来至关重要。妇女在英国军队的所有部门服役。在英国，这一决定是几十年前做出的，因为人们预见到我们在未来的军事人员供应方面会有问题。在早期，我们在接受方面有一些问题，但妇女很快就证明了自己，并克服了老派军队的旧有偏见。真诚的马略-格鲁斯
I believe this would be an excellent opportunity and vital for the future. Women serve in all branches of the UK Forces. In the UK this decision was taken decades ago as it was forseen that we would have problems in the future supply of military personnel. We had a few issues with acceptance in the early days but women soon proved themselves and overcame old prejudices from old school military. Yours Sincerely Marius Gruss
我认为现在被要求报名的妇女非常不情愿，她们提出了许多不报名的 "理由"。
I think the women who are now asked to sign up are very unwilling and they offer many "reasons" not to do so.
当我读到或听到诸如性别中立或类似的术语时，我想知道到底在说什么。 在美国，其含义是妇女需要降低标准，以获得平等的外观，而任务或目的却被忽视了。 然而，根据消防等职业的经验，在战争时期，当任务是领导行动和目标时，性别并不重要。 只要男性和女性的标准相同，"性别中立 "的征兵就会成为一种优势。 对其他国家来说，以色列就是这样。 归根结底，这取决于真正的目标是什么。
When I read or hear terms like gender-neutral or similar terms I wonder what is really being said. In the US the implication is that women need to have standards lowered to have the appearance of equality while the mission or purpose is ignored. Yet experience with professions such as firefighting and at times of war gender does not matter when the mission is leading action and goal. As long as standards are the same for both men and women "gender-neutral" conscription can be an advantage. It has been for other countries, Israel. In the end it depends on what the real goal is.
我同意许多选择标准已经被 "改变"，以允许妇女 "平等进入 "或平等竞争。 这很明显，但似乎没有人能够对此发表评论，以免他们被打上性别歧视和保守思想的烙印。
I agree many standards of selection have been "altered" to allow "equal entry" or equal playing fields for women. It is glaring but no one seems to be able to comment on this lest they are branded sexist and conservative thinking.
不幸的是，你是对的。 在这种情况下，每个人都是失败的。
Unfortunately, you are right. In which case everybody loses.
好主意 !我们的社会已经发生了很大的变化，现在的女性占据了历史上为男性准备的民事工作。军队需要多种人才，在某些情况下，女兵甚至可能比男性更有资格。在我的时代，一个有扁平足的人将被取消服役资格。因此，他们错过了像土木工程师这样的专家。但这种情况只发生在一次重大改革之前。决策者们终于意识到，一支现代军队需要的不仅仅是 "徒步旅行的傻瓜"...
Good idea ! Our society has changed a lot and women nowadays occupy civilian jobs that were historically meant for men. The army needs multiple talents and in some cases female soldiers may be even better qualified than men. In my time, a guy with flat feet would be disqualified for service. Thus, they missed specialists like civil engineers. But this had happened only until a major reform. Decision makers finally realized that a modern army needs more than just "hiking fools"...
要在战争时期保卫一个国家，有更多的方法，而不仅仅是携带枪支。还有后勤、衣服、食物、计划，不胜枚举。
我不是在贬低女性，因为与男性相比，她们拥有多种互补的技能。
通过平等的征兵义务，瑞士的女性朋友可以为瑞士的国防做出巨大的贡献。
阅读这里的所有评论（其中一半来自非瑞士人或新瑞士人），他们从自己的世界中带来了很多包袱，当我们讨论这个征兵话题时，女权主义话题就会爆发。这一点都没有帮助。
有些人甚至希望政治家解决工资不平等问题，并要求免费的儿童保育等。可怕的方式是插入他们自己的议程。
有了女性征兵，我相信瑞士的未来可以得到改善。即使在非战争时期，两种性别也能真正与 "战争游戏 "一起工作，并学会相互欣赏，利用每种性别的优势。
如果这些人要求 "平等"，而不是直接解决这个人力话题，我们都是注定要失败的。
To defend a country in times of war, there are more ways than just carrying firearms. There are logistics, clothing, food, planning, the list goes on.
I am not belittling the female gender as they possess multiple and complementary skills compared to the male gender.
By having equal conscription obligations, the womenfolk in Switzerland can hugely contribute to the defence of Switzerland.
Reading all the comments here (half of them are from non-swiss or newly-swissed), they bring a lot of baggage from their worlds where feminism topics flare up when we discuss this conscription topic. Not helpful at all.
Some even want the politicians to solve the salary inequality and demand free childcare etc. Horrendous way to insert their own agenda.
With female conscription, I believe the future of Switzerland can be improved. Even in non-war times, the 2 genders can actually work alongside "war games" and learn to appreciate one another and take advantage of strengths of each gender.
If these people demand "equality" instead of addressing this humanpower topic directly, we are all doomed.
平等是一个共同的利益，而不是别人的议程，作为一个男人，我想你很容易说话。
瑞士军队不适合女性。我的丈夫曾是卫生员，在这个团队中，与其他团队相比，有相当多的女性。所有的制服都太大了，太长了。没有关于女性月经的统一规定，所以要由负责的个人来决定该怎么做，这不是好事。运动标准不适合女性。浴室不提供任何隐私，所以当月经来临时，能够按照医生的要求每隔4小时洗一次澡以更换卫生棉条等，也是很幸运的。
有些女孩称自己为女同性恋者，完全是因为与士兵沟通很困难，因为他们每天都在接近你......
平等是一种共同的利益，而不是别人的议程，女人也生活在瑞士，称平等是别人的议程让我相信你是来自最后一个允许妇女投票的州。我来自一个男人也担任公务员的国家，所以这个想法对我来说并不新鲜。作为一个女人，我不会为军队牺牲我的工作时间，直到我获得与男人同等的报酬，让我们从这里开始，以后我们会向你介绍怀孕的困难以及雇主对它的看法....。
Equality is a common good not someone elses agenda, as a men i guess it is easy for you to speak .
Well swiss army is not equipped for women. My husband served as sanitair and in this group where are quite a lot of women compare to others. All the uniforms are too big, too long. No uniformed rules about woman periods so it is up to individual in charge to decide what to do, not good. The sport criteria is not suitable for women. Bathrooms do not provide any privacy so again when period hits good luck being able to take a quick shower every 4 hours as required by doctors to change the tampon etc.
Some girls call themself lesbians solely because of how hard it is to communicate with soldiers because they approach you every day...
Equality is a common good not someone else's agenda, woman live in Switzerland too and calling equality someone else's agenda makes me believe you are from the canton which was the last to let woman vote. I come from a country where men also serve compolsury so idea is not new to me. I am as a woman will not sacrifice my working time to army, until I am equally paid as a men, let's start there and later we will introduce you to the hardship of pregnancy and how it is perceived by employers....
"作为一个男人，我想你说话很容易。"
为什么你认为男人的意见不被重视？
"让我相信你是来自最后一个允许妇女投票的州。"
你为什么要侮辱我或该州？这根本就不是事实。
"稍后我们将向您介绍怀孕的艰辛以及雇主对它的看法"
怀孕或雇主与全国妇女服务有什么关系？ 怀孕的男人也需要做一些事情。 我们从不轻视怀孕。
"as a men i guess it is easy for you to speak ."
Why is it that you think men's comments are not taken seriously?
"makes me believe you are from the canton which was the last to let woman vote."
Why do you insult me or the kanton? It is not true at all.
"later we will introduce you to the hardship of pregnancy and how it is perceived by employers"
What has pregnancy or employers got to do with National Service for Women? Men with pregnancy also need to do something. We never take pregnancy lightly.
我说 "作为一个男人"，是因为你说性别平等是某人的议程，而不是瑞士的某种产品，好像瑞士没有这方面的问题。因此，作为一个男人，也许你并没有注意到这个问题。人们回复你的事实表明，你的评论被认真对待，足以让人写下回复。
你首先侮辱了每个女人，说她们在日常生活中与性别不平等的斗争不是瑞士的问题。你知道女人的卫生棉条被当作奢侈的鱼子酱来征税，而不是作为必需品？
我把怀孕假作为一个例子，雇主已经对雇用25-35岁的已婚妇女犹豫不决，加上兵役会使情况恶化，说他们没有关系，一个是私营部门，另一个是国防部门，在雇主眼中没有区别。妇女在工作领域的地位比男子低，服兵役会使情况变得更糟。
I said "as a men" because you said that gender equality is someone's agenda and is not a Swiss product of sort, as if Switzerland does not have a problem with it. Hence as a men maybe you did not notice the problem. The fact that people replying to you says that your comment is taken seriously enough to write a reply to.
You insulted every single woman first by saying their struggle with gender inequality in everyday life is not a Swiss problem. Did you know woman's tampons are taxed as luxury caviar and not as nessecety ?
I bring pregnancy leave as an example that employers already hesitant to hire a woman 25-35 who is married, adding military service will worsen the situation and saying that they are not connected and one is private sector and other is defence has no difference in the eyes of employers. Woman stand lower than men in working field and military service will make it worse.
@LOL @HAT 和所有用户 -- 感谢大家分享你们对这场辩论的看法。 你们都提出了重要的观点。@LOL 挪威和瑞典的武装部队仍在努力调整制服和装备以适应女性，尽管他们已经有了不分性别的征兵制度好几年了。
@HAT 我在挪威采访的专家不厌其烦地指出，在军队里有很多战斗以外的机会，从医疗到后勤再到警犬部队。而在瑞士，许多人可能会同意你的观点，即男性和女性可以在战争中并肩作战，因为支持男女征兵的比例在2021年已经上升到67%。
请继续提出有趣的想法，但请大家在这场辩论中不要对其他用户做出假设。
@LOL @HAT and all users -- thank-you all for sharing your thoughts on this debate. You all bring up important points. @LOL The Norwegian and Swedish armed forces are still working on adapting uniforms and equipment to women, even though they've had gender-neutral conscription for several years now.
@HAT Experts I spoke to in Norway were at pains to point out that there are so many opportunities in the military outside combat that range from medical care to logistics to the canine unit. And many people in Switzerland would probably agree with you that men and women can work alongside each other on a war footing, as the percentage of people who support conscription for both women and men has risen to 67% in 2021.
Keep the interesting thoughts coming, but please let's all refrain from making assumptions about other users in this debate.
@Geraldine，我想你可能把我的评论和其他一些人的评论混为一谈。
我知道军队可以而且必须为女性提供合适的条件和工作，但如果我明确说出这一点，我又会被打成性别歧视。
男性和女性（以及其他任何性别）的征兵期限将使人们更紧密地联系在一起，从而避免所有那些 "无关紧要 "的关于同工同酬、免费托儿所的话题，这些话题对女性来说很烦，但对男性来说同样有影响。男人通常对这样的事情不大发表意见，我们接受它并继续前进。
即使这一点不明显，我也强烈主张权利平等、薪酬平等和一切平等。问题是，（一些）妇女必须提高标准，停止抱怨事情有多么不公平或不平等。如果她们所做的只是抱怨，那么她们就会被看作是噪音，对改变这种看法没有什么作用。(我不是针对任何特定的女性说的）。 我最好的建议是：先做，后说。
@Geraldine, I think you may have mixed up my comments with some others.
I know the military can and must offer women-suitable conditions and jobs but if i say this clearly, i will again be branded as sexist.
A conscription duration for both men and women (and any other gender) will bring people closer together, thus avoiding all those "unrelated" talk about equal pay, free childcare and topics which nags the women but equally impacts the men. Men are usually less vocal about such things, we accept it and move along.
Even if this is not apparent, I advocate strongly for equal rights, equal pay and equal everything. Thing is this, (some) women must step up to the standards and STOP complaining about how unfair or unequal things are. If all they do is complain, then they are seen as just noise and not dong much to change that perception. (I am not saying this about any particular woman here). My best recommendation is: do first, talk later.
其实我有个问题。我认识一个瑞士人，他拒绝服役，也不交税。他结婚了，现在他们共同缴税，这意味着她为他缴税，因为他没有参军，这怎么会公平甚至合法？所以请解释一下，为什么没有人说女人已经在为没有参军而付出代价，而且没有办法为已婚夫妇重新计算，太愚蠢了。
Actually I have a question. I know a swiss men who declined serving in anyway and pay taxes. He got married and now they pay taxes jointly meaning she contributes to paying his taxes because he did not go to army, how is it fair or even legal? So please explain why no one speakes about woman already paying for not being in the army and there is no way to recalculate it for married couple, so stupid
瑞士国防部表示，它正在权衡 "基于需求的服役义务 "方案的积极激励和消极激励（即税收），该方案将把征兵范围扩大到妇女。它指出，在挪威，在武装部队服役可以使人们在公共服务工作中获得优势。因此，人们认为瑞士可以提供诸如教育方面的财政支持，作为对应征者的一种积极激励。
The Swiss defence department says it's weighing up positive incentives versus negative incentives (i.e., a tax) for the "needs-based obligation to serve" option which would extend the draft to women. It notes that in Norway, doing a stint in the armed forces gives people a leg up for public service jobs. So the thinking is that Switzerland could offer things like financial support for education, for example, as a positive incentive for conscripts.
答案很简单。 这对夫妇中的妻子（女人）可以主动拒绝支付这部分税款。 这基本上是由男人和女人来决定的。 税务局并不决定这对夫妇中的哪个瑞士法郎来自谁。
这也是人们不结婚的另一个原因。他们在不结婚的情况下要求免费/廉价的儿童保育服务，却少交了税。
The answer is an easy one. The wife (woman) of this couple, can actively REFUSE to pay that portion of tax. It is basically up to the man and woman to decide. The tax office does not dictate which CHF comes from whom in this couple.
That is also another reason why people do not get married. They pay less taxes while they demand free /cheap childcare while not being married.
谢谢你的解释，但到目前为止，这意味着在瑞士，如果一个男人拒绝服役并停止缴税，当他结婚时，税款合并并增加，所以赢得了现实，与他结婚的女人也要支付军队税，因为它是从工资中计算出来的，现在你要支付联合税。为什么没有这方面的工作呢？
Thank you for explaining but so far it means in Switzerland if a men declines to serve and closes to pay taxes when he marries the taxes combine and multiplied so win reality woman who merries him pays the army tax too as it is calculated from salary and now you pay join tax... Why there is no work done about it?
谢谢你对选择不服兵役者的免征税的评论。然而，税收政策如何影响已婚夫妇和其他人是另一个话题。如果作为读者的你们想更深入地辩论这个问题，请随时在这里提出。[url]https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/debates[/url]。
Thanks for your comments about the exemption tax for those who choose not to do military service. However, how tax policies affect married couples and others is another topic. If you as readers would like to debate this issue in greater depth, please feel free to suggest it here: [url]https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/debates[/url].
我不同意。军税如何直接影响已婚夫妇的话题不是一个单独的问题。缴纳军税的男人要付出更多，只是因为他已经结婚了，我无法想象一个家庭会接受这种情况，即使只有男人的工资用来支付这部分税款，这也不会危及家庭幸福。因此，妇女已经为不参军付出了代价，我同意在这里结婚是一场灾难，我们正在积极地重新考虑我们作为一个家庭的婚姻状况，因为我们都在工作。
I disagree. The topic of how military tax directly affects married couple is not a separate question. The men who pays military tax pays more only because he is married and I can not imagine a family who would be OK with it and where even if only men's salary used to pay that portion of tax this will not venefit family wellbeing. So woman already pay for not being in army and I agree that being married here is a disaster and we are actively reconsidering our married status as a family, because we both work.
因为如果他们这样做了，他们就必须谈论强迫向男性征税而不向女性征税是多么荒唐的性别歧视，当然了。
Because if they did they would have to speak about how absurdly sexist it is to force a tax on men and not on women, of course.
@Geraldine Wong，这个话题不是由我提出的。 我可以讨论这个问题，但它不是由我提出的。因此，请确保你标记的是正确的人。
@Geraldine Wong, the topic is raised not by me. I can discuss this but it is not raised by me. So please ensure you hastag the correct person.
当人们把婚姻和税收放在一起考虑时，这是很可悲的。 对已婚人士征税不公平吗？已婚人士确实比未婚人士有更多的税收减免，最后，这一切都会平衡。
再说一遍，我们不是在讨论税收和婚姻问题。
我们讨论的是妇女是否应该接受国民服务。
It is sad when people consider marriage and tax together. Is tax for married people unfair? Married people do have more tax breaks than unmarried people and in the end, it all balances out.
Again, we are not discussing tax and marriage.
We are discussing whether women should embrace National Service.
谢谢你指出这一点。这是个错误。该评论是针对所有用户的，而不仅仅是你。
Thanks for pointing this out. It was an error. The comment was meant for all users, and not just you.
平等的权利伴随着平等的义务。但我认为，以同样的方式对待女性和男性不会有任何帮助，性别是不同的。我们的存在确实是因为两个性别决定做孩子，对吗？因此，出于政治原因强制废除性别是愚蠢的。
Equal rights comes with equal obligations. But I think it will help nobody to treat women and men the same way, the genders are different. We do exist because the two sexes decide to do children, right? And therefore it is foolish to mandate the abolishing of the genders for political reasons.
在这个国家的政治和社会指导方面，妇女可以拥有和男人一样的投票权。
因此，在不涉及女权主义话题的情况下，女性应该像男性一样为国家服务（在军队/消防员）。她可以选择其他职业或相同的职业。 这才是真正值得被称为爱国者的人。
The woman can have the same VOTE as a man, in terms of political and social steering of this country.
Therefore, not going into feminism topics, the woman should serve the country like the man (in military / fireman). She can choose from other vocations or same vocations. That is truly a person worthy to be called a country-loving patriot.
平等不仅仅是投票....薪资差距说明了什么，或者说瑞士公司是如何看待女性作为兼职工作者的？
equality is not only about voting.... Salary gap speaks of anything or how swiss companies perceived woman as a part time workers mostly ?
私营公司的工资差距与国家的平等权利没有关系。如果你对薪酬不满意，请离开。
并阅读人权（EMRK）。你没有工作的权利，但你有拒绝工作的权利!
The salary gap in private companies has nothing to do with equal rights in the state. If you are unhappy with a payment, leave.
And read the human rights (EMRK). You have no right to work, but you have the right to refuse to work!
完全正确，丹尼尔!
Totally spot on, Daniel!
我想说，现在是瑞士将其兵役制度现代化并转向军事/社区服务模式的时候了，它在某种程度上已经是这样了，但要扩大服务的职业范围，允许开展一系列社区项目，这可能对所有性别的和平主义者（我的意思是好的，因为我也是和平主义者）更有吸引力。 然后，他们可以取消现在为选择不服役的男性提供的 "不玩就得付钱 "的选择。 如果有足够多的不持枪的选择，他们可以征召除残疾人以外的所有人参加。 他们还可以与新移民一起提供项目，这样大家可以互相学习，为瑞士文化带来更多的多样性。
哦，对了，还有免费和广泛的托儿服务--如果你想要平等，那就公平竞争吧！"。
I would say it’s time Switzerland modernized its Military Service and move to a Military/Community Service model, which it already is to some extent, but widen the occupations for the service, allowing for a host of community projects, which might appeal more to pacifists (I mean that in a good way, as I am also a pacifist) of all genders. Then they could do away with the ‘you pay if you don’t play’ option that they now offer to males who choose not to serve. If there were enough non gun wielding options, they could conscript all but the disabled to participate. They could also offer programs in conjunction with new immigrants so everyone could learn from each other and bring more diversity to Swiss culture.
Oh yeah, and free and widespread child care - if you want equality, even the playing field!
谢谢你的评论，SWISSCOTT。我在挪威采访的一位专家（见上文今早发表的关于挪威制度的文章）指出，让女性（和男性）知道军队提供了大量不涉及战斗的可能性非常重要 -- 例如，挪威女性应征者中最受欢迎的单位是警犬队。而且，据瑞士国防部称，在研究如何改革当前的征兵制度时，他们将不得不认真考虑或重新考虑那些选择不服兵役的人的税收问题。
Thanks for your comment, SWISSCOTT. One of the experts I spoke to in Norway (see article above on the Norwegian system published this morning) noted the importance of letting women (and men) know that the military offers a host of possibilities that don't involve combat -- one popular unit among Norwegian women conscripts is the canine unit, for example. And, according to the Swiss defence ministry, the issue of the tax for those who opt out of military service is something they will have to consider or re-consider seriously as they study how to reform the current conscription system.
根据这些不平等现象持续存在的地方以及其重要性（或危害性）......是的，关注不平等现象应该有优先权。
Depending on where these inequalities persist and the importance (or detriment) thereof...yes, attending inequalities should have priority.
PRPD提出了一个很好的观点。谁能回答这个问题。什么是女人？
PRPD brings up a good point. Can anyone answer this question. What is a woman?
谁能回答什么是男人？
Can anyone answer what is a man???
不回答...
Non-answer...
我们如何定义自己的问题是一个有趣的问题，但它不属于本次辩论的范围，即：瑞士应该采用不分性别的征兵方式吗？为什么或为什么不？
The question of how we define ourselves is an interesting one, but it falls outside the scope of this debate, which is: should Switzerland adopt gender-neutral conscription? Why or why not?
很抱歉，但你难道没有注意到，男人和女人其实是不同的？当然，在价值上是平等的，但他们不可能在所有功能上都平等。感谢上帝。
Sorry to say but have you not noticed that men and women are in fact different? Equal in value, yes, of course, but they can never be equal in all functions. Thanks God.
这并不妨碍妇女成为有效的士兵，也许不是在战斗单位。请看以色列，自1948年起就开始征召妇女，并且比大多数其他国家有更成功的军事历史。
Doesn't prevent women from being effective soldiers, maybe not in combat unit. See Israel, drafts women since 1948 and has a more successful military history than most other countries.
我认为，薪酬平等和儿童保育是第一位的，征兵是第二位的。 妇女投票，需要接触军事文化，以获得更明智的投票。 我所有的姻亲都是瑞士人，但我是一名美国前海军陆战队员，为了避免征兵而自愿加入，因此是最不聪明的军队。 瑞士和挪威的军队是我们可怕的国际疯人院中最好的。 我曾与挪威军队中的一位少校共事。 它也有缺陷，但没有那么严重，因为他们仍然记得德国的占领。
Pay equality and childcare first, conscription 2nd, is my opinion. Women vote and need exposure to military culture to have a more informed vote. All my inlaws are Swiss, but I'm an american ex-marine, having volunteered to avoid the draft and therefore the least intelligent military. Swiss and Norwegian military are the best of our horrible international insanity. I worked with a Major in the Norwegian military. It too is flawed, but less so because they still remember German occupation.
因此，工资和照顾孩子比保卫国家更重要（不一定是使用枪支，因为 "不那么合适的人 "还有许多其他方式可以为全面防卫做出贡献。
没有国家，祝你的工作和托儿所好运。
问问乌克兰。
So salary and child care are more important than defending a country (not necessarily using firearms because there are many other ways a "less fit person" can contribute to TOTAL DEFENCE.
Without a country, good luck to your job and childcare center.
Ask Ukraine.
相反，征兵应该是第一位的。到现在为止，瑞士妇女可以投票选举那些可以把男人送上战场的政治家，而自己却不承担任何后果。这一点必须得到解决。
On the contrary, conscription should come first. As of now, Swiss women can vote in politicians who can send men to war, while facting no consequences themselves. This must be fixed.
是的，妇女有投票权，因此可以对外交政策产生影响，这可能导致战争。她们也必须像男人一样，承担这种决定的后果。
Yeah, women vote, and thus can have an influence on foreign policy, which can result in war. They must also bear the burden of the consequences of such decisions, just like the men.
他们必须先解释 "什么是女人"，因为西方在这个问题上有问题。 美国已经疯狂地给妇女冠以 "生育者 "的称号。IMHO......前几代的女性让今天的年轻女性感到很困难。
They'll have to explain "what a woman is" first seeing that the west is having a problem with the issue. United States has gone crazy with titling women with the moniker "birth person." IMHO...previous generations of women have made it difficult for young women today.
好主意。要做到真正的平等，女性应该和男性做同样的工作。按照世界的发展方向，各地的人很快就会需要一支更大的军队。最好现在就开始训练。此外，任何以瑞士为家的外国人（比如30岁以下）也应该服兵役。许多外国人等到他们太老了，不能参军了才申请加入瑞士国籍。我--我来这里的时候已经太老了。
Great idea. To be truly equal, women should do the same jobs as men. The way the world is going, everyone everywhere will need a bigger army soon. Best start the training now. Also, any foreigner (up to say, age 30) who makes Switzerland their home should do military service too. Many foreigners wait until they are too old to go in the military before applying for Swiss citizenship. Me - I was already too old when I came here.
这就是为什么瑞士要考虑外国人服兵役的义务的另一个原因，就像法国的外籍军团一样，并将兵役延长到65岁，就像乌克兰一样。
Thats one more reason why Switzerland shall think about the obligation of military service for foreigners, note the french Légion étrangère, and extend the military service to an age of 65 years like in the Ukraine.
在照顾家庭方面，男人和女人做同样的工作如何？照顾孩子？等等。?
How about a man doing the same job as a woman when it comes to house care? Tending the children? etc. etc. ?
嗨，LYNX，不幸的是我也是，我很想在这里服兵役。
我在英国军队的一个步兵团中服役了18个月，但当我与我的瑞士妻子结婚时，我已经40岁了，不能在这里服役。然而，我有一套精美的瑞士卡宾枪，我时常在靶场上使用，还有一把李恩菲尔德.303，这是我服兵役时使用的型号。
Hi LYNX, unfortunately so was I, would have loved to have done my military service here.
I served 18 months in an infantry regiment in the British Army, but i was the wrong side of 40 to serve here when I married my Swiss wife. However I have a fine collection of Swiss carbines which I use on the ranges from time to time, plus a Lee Enfield .303 which is the type I used when I did my national service.
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