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Where should the money come from to finance the 13th pension payment?

Hosted by: Samuel Jaberg

There are numerous proposals for financing the 13th monthly pension payment, which was approved in Sunday’s referendum: from higher salary deductions for the working population to a tax on financial transactions or a new inheritance tax, not forgetting an increase in VAT.

What do you think? Where should we look for the CHF4-5 billion needed to finance this reform every year? We’d love to hear from you!

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kkckkc
kkckkc

I must admit, I am super confused. Pensions funds companies always have healthy profits even during bad times. During my working life time the US stock market has gone from 2000 in 1987 to 40,000 in 2024 so why are we having a pensions crises?

Where and how is all the money being plowed into these funds being invested? How is the risk being managed? How are the returns being redistributed?

I think we need to look at pensions from this perspective.

Anonymous
Anonymous

Swiss "government" has enough money to finance 13th pension payement...
Ehmm... the topic is about AVS... Not the pension !!!
Eventually... the pension IS the 2nd pillar !!
The AVS has been established years... years ago (after 2nd WW).
Nevertheless, as I said before, Swiss government HAS ENOUGH MONEY to pay to THEIR CITIZENS the13th AVS "salary ".
In a worse case, it's enough to suspend money delivery to everyone who are not Swiss.
It's time to THINK AND CARE TO THE TRUE SWISS PEOPLE.

Philippp
Philippp

Well, you pay the VAT as a consumer and not the company selling a product or service. So you are basically demanding consumers pay for it. And who consumes most of as share of his income? Hint, it 's not the rich....

Centennial
Centennial

The funds for the AHV 13th payment should come from money going outside of Switzerland, for example to Ukraine. Redirection to our own citizens makes the most sense. Back to the ones who are paying Swiss taxes.

Sunshine
Sunshine
The following contribution has been automatically translated from FR.

I'm proposing a tax on sugary drinks. Sugar-sweetened drinks are a health scourge: obesity, diabetes, etc. By taxing sugary drinks, we hope to reduce the increase in health insurance expenditure at the same time as funding the 13th pension.

Je propose une taxe sur les boissons sucrées. En effet, les boissons sucrées sont un fléau pour la santé : obésité, diabète etc.. En taxant les boissons sucrées, on a l'espoir de réduire l'augmentation des dépenses de l'assurance maladie simultanément au financement de la 13ème rente.

Peter Ern
Peter Ern
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.

From the federal budget.

Aus dem Bundeshaushalt.

Peter Ern
Peter Ern
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.

Have not received the voting documents. "mai pen rai".

Habe die Abstimmungsunterlagen nicht erhalten. "mai pen rai".

Alexandersomm
Alexandersomm
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.

The purpose of every company is to maximise profits, everything else is secondary. The maximised profits only benefit investors and speculators.
The following therefore applies: optimising production by providing and managing tools, fuel, raw materials and labour is the responsibility of entrepreneurs.
AHV and health insurance funds enable companies to operate by offering workers security and emotional health. The healthier and better-humoured the workforce, the better the production (profits). Ensuring that workers are well (so that they perform optimally) is therefore the responsibility of the company, not (via subsidies) that of the taxpayer.
Investors receive profit payments, not the taxpayer, so all the risk is on the investor, without guarantees or surety from the taxpayer. Therefore, all subsidies to companies that do not contribute to the promotion of the common good, or that do not produce products that have the sole purpose of sustainably promoting the prosperity of society, should be abolished. This is neither revolutionary nor progressive thinking, it is logical and self-evident.

Der Zweck eines jeden Unternehmens ist die Profit Maximierung, alles andere ist zweitrangig. Die maximierten Gewinne kommen einzig Investoren und Spekulanten zu Gute.
Ergo gilt: Die Produktionsoptimierung mittels Bereitstellung und management von Werkzeug, Treibstoff, Rohstoffen und Arbeitskräften, ist Sache der Unternehmer.
AHV und Krankenkassen ermöglichen den Betrieb der Unternehmen indem sie den Arbeitern Sicherheit bieten, emotionale Gesundheit. Je gesünder und besser gelaunt die Arbeiterschaft, umso besser die Produktion (die Gewinne). Dass es den Arbeitskräften gut geht (damit sie optimal leisten) liegt demnach im Verantwortungsbereich des Betriebes, nicht (via Subventionen), in der der Steuerzahler.
Investoren erhalten Gewinnauszahlungen, nicht der Steuerzahler, deshalb geht das ganze Risiko auf den Investor, ohne Garantien oder Bürgschaft des Steuerzahlers. Daher sind alle Subventionen von Unternehmen welche nicht zur Förderung des Allgemeinwohls beitragen, bzw. welche nicht die Produkte produzieren, welche einzig den Zweck haben, den Wohlstand der Gesellschaft nachhaltig zu fördern, zu abzuschaffen. Das ist weder revolutionäres noch fortschrittliches Denken, das ist logisch und selbstverständlich.

Bea
Bea
The following contribution has been automatically translated from FR.

Raise the retirement age to 65 for everyone and then 66.
I'm 69 and still working because I have to.
It would also be a good idea to distribute the famous 13th AVS pension on a monthly basis (if we can see the colour of it?!), since the aim is to be able to survive with a slightly higher AVS.

Augmenter l’âge de la retraite à 65 ans pour tous puis 66 ans.
J’en ai 69 et je travaille encore par obligation.
Il serait judicieux également de répartir mensuellement la fameuse 13ème rente d’AVS ( si on en voit la couleur ?!) puisque le but est de pouvoir survivre avec une AVS un peu augmentée

Alois Amrein
Alois Amrein
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.
@Bea

This is exactly what was clearly rejected at the ballot box. Raising the retirement age is stupid and undesirable.

Genau das wurde an der Urne deutlich abgelehnt. Eine Erhöhung des Rentenalters ist dumm und nicht gewünscht.

Giacomo Notrevo
Giacomo Notrevo

I predict that the government will find some weasel excuse not to implement the 13th month AVS project, or to delay it with bureaucratic maneuvers.

World Citizen
World Citizen
The following contribution has been automatically translated from IT.
@Giacomo Notrevo

We would hope that the will of the people will be respected. However, it would not be the first time that when the outcome of a vote turns up their noses in the land of bears, a plan B is pulled out of the drawer, which, thanks to the much vaunted democracy, is implemented without asking anyone for anything.

Vogliamo ben sperare che la volontà del popolo venga rispettata. Tuttavia non sarebbe la prima volta che quando l'esito di una votazione fa storcere il naso nella terra degli orsi si tira fuori il piano B dal cassetto che, grazie alla tanto conclamata democrazia, viene messo in atto senza chiedere nulla a nessuno.

kanduri
kanduri

Switzerland gives away fossil fuel subsidies every year amounting to CHF 12 Billion!

As per the Federal Government, CHF 4.2 Billion are required additionally to finance it today. In the next 5 years, this is estimated to grow to CHF 5 Billion.

Source:
https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmitteilungen.msg-id-100554.html

Now just the subsidies given to road transport amounts to over CHF 6 Billion. And flight subsidies amount to over CHF 1.7 Billion.

Source:
https://portal-cdn.scnat.ch/asset/c49f6f41-eb79-5c7b-a46d-81bdbc97753a/Factsheet_Subventionen_D_rot_online.pdf

To me the answer seems quite easy. Remove fossil fuel subsidies for flights, and reduce it gradually over 5-10 years for road transport. Ready money to finance the whole thing right away.

UrsLoepfe
UrsLoepfe
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.
@kanduri

If we supplement this with an energy steering tax, we will have enough money for the AHV and will not have to increase VAT or payroll taxes.

Wenn wir das ganze noch mit einer Energie-Lenkungsabgabe ergänzen haben wir völlig ausreihend Geld für die AHV und müssen, weder die Mehrwertsteuer noch die Lohnabgaben erhöhen.

Peter b
Peter b
@kanduri

@kanduri -it seems you have little technical or economic understanding. A country can not survive without energy and transport. Low cost energy can give countries an advantage over other countries. China has low cost energy through the use of their own resources (coal, oil, natural gas, uranium). They make sufficient money so they can bargain to obtain cheaper imported materials such as coal from Australia, Canada, Indonesia and South Africa or oil & natural gas from Russia and middle east.
If Switzerland can not export their manufacturing (pharmaceuticals, machinery etc) then there will be no money to pay pensions.
As someone else has said giving money to unproductive causes outside the country such as Palestine and Ukraine only helps world population growth and demand for food.

Bernhard Meyer Nong Chok
Bernhard Meyer Nong Chok
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.

You should put a tight rein on the Federal Council because you are still spending huge sums of money abroad instead of reserving this money for AHV! While at the same time shutting down the important achievements in social policy for Switzerland (return of the bourgeoisie) You are not interested at all, as you have been distanced from the people for a long time and are not really affected by your privileges.

Man sollte den Bundesrat an die Kandare nehmen denn Sie geben nach wie vor Unsummen ins Ausland aus anstatt dieses Geld für die AHV zu reservieren! Unter gleichzeitigem Herunterfahren der für die Schweiz wichtigen Errungenschaften bei der Sozialpolitik ( Retourkutsche der Bürgerlichen ) Es interessiert Sie überhaupt nicht, sind Sie ja schon lange Abgehoben vom Volk und mit Ihren Privilegien auch nicht wirklich betroffen.

World Citizen
World Citizen
The following contribution has been automatically translated from IT.

To find the money to finance the AVS, it would be necessary first of all to stop wasting it left and right, especially abroad. Scary figures have been put on the table to save the banks and now we will have to find what is necessary to pay the 13th AHV, which in many cases will not be enough to live in dignity. Proposing the 13th AVS for everyone without distinction was a fatal mistake.

Per trovare il denaro per finanziare l'AVS bisognerebbe prima di tutto smettere di scialacquarlo a dritta e a manca, specialmente all'estero. Sono stati messi sul tavolo cifre spaventose per salvare le banche e adesso si dovrà trovare il necessario per versare la 13.ma AVS, che in molti casi non sarà comunque sufficiente per vivere dignitosamente. Proporre la 13.ma AVS per tutti indistintamente è stato un errore fatale.

DP
DP
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.

It wasn't just like that I (had to) leave Switzerland after retirement. On the contrary, Switzerland, with its generous budget for non-Swiss spending, forced me to do so. They always had enough money for everyone else in Bern. Think of Swissair, UBS, Covid, Ukraine, CS and many more.
BUT NOT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED FOR UP TO 45 YEARS AND HAVE JUST FINANCED THIS FEDERAL MEGALOMANIA.
Over 12 years ago, I rented a 2-room apartment for CHF 1,000 right on the main street. What the monthly rental price is today beyond my knowledge. Even back then, my monthly health insurance premium was CHF 450. Today I estimate I would certainly have to shell out CHF 700 or more for it.
After my normal retirement, I received the AHV. Today, this amounts to CHF 2,132. Every Swiss resident who can only calculate a little knows that they can't even survive with this amount. In the community on whose council I sat for 9 years to beg EL was not an option for me.
So I carefully looked for a nice spot on earth where I'm still worth something as a senior and I can still live independently with Swiss handouts.
I moved over 11 years ago and never returned, not least for reasons of cost. Among other things, I've never been able to hug my now 5 & 6 year old grandchildren. That explains why I emigrated.
And now on to the actual topic:
It doesn't matter to me at all how Parliament scrapes together the money. Wasteful life is now finally over. I would start at the expense of foreign social spending. If that's not enough, every Swiss can help with slightly higher payroll contributions. And last but not least, Switzerland has the lowest value added tax of all European countries. There is still some “bacon on the bone” there!
I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO COME UP WITH THE ARGUMENT THAT THE “POOR” WOULD HAVE TO COME UP WITH NUMBERS TOO!
As a result of bad luck and stupidity, I have become impoverished for old age. So don't tell me about turning over every chunk twice a month until I can spend it.
Parliamentarians have also been aware of the argument that all Baby Boomers will soon retire soon. But no one has set up AHV in such a way that it continues to meet the basic needs of the elderly. And now it's time for action! I have a securitized right to a 13th AHV pension!
p.s. Watch the SRF Arena broadcast on 08.03.2024 to see what the two parliamentarians Häberli and Gutjahr considered in their closing remarks. NOT SO LADIES!!! Even though I live abroad and don't want to be a burden on anyone, I am still a SWISS CITIZEN and have even paid into social services for 47 years. That's why my pension doesn't have to be cut!!!

Nicht einfach so habe ich nach meiner Pensionierung die Schweiz verlassen (müssen). Ganz im Gegenteil die Schweiz mit ihrem grosszügigen Budget für nicht Schweizerische Ausgaben hat mich dazu gezwungen. Für alle andern hatten die in Bern immer genügend Geld. Denke da an Swissair, UBS, Covid, Ukraine, CS uvam.
ABER NICHT FÜR DIE LEUTE, DIE BIS ZU 45 JAHRE LANG GEARBEITET HABEN UND GERADE DIESEN EIDGENÖSSISCHEN GRÖSSENWAHNSINN FINANZIERT HABEN.
Vor über 12 Jahren mietete ich mir eine 2-Zimmer-Wohnung für CHF 1‘000 direkt an der Hauptstrasse. Wie hoch der monatliche Mietpreis heute beträgt entzieht sich meiner Kenntnis. Schon damals war meine Monatsprämie für die Krankenkasse CHF 450. Heute schätze ich müsste ich sicher CHF 700 oder mehr dafür berappen.
Nach der ordentlichen Pensionierung erhielt ich die AHV. Diese beträgt heute CHF 2‘132. Jeder Schweizer Einwohner der nur einwenig rechnen kann, weiss ganz genau, dass man mit diesem Betrag nicht mal überleben kann. Auf der Gemeinde, in deren Rat ich 9 Jahre sass, um EL zu betteln war für mich keine Option.
Also suchte ich sorgfältig abgeklärt einen netten Flecken Erde wo ich als Senior noch was wert bin und ich mit den Schweizerischen Almosen noch selbständig leben kann.
Vor über 11 Jahren bin ich dann übersiedelt und nicht zuletzt auch aus Kostengründen nie mehr zurück gekehrt. Unter anderen durfte ich meine heute 5 & 6 jährigen Grosskinder noch nie umarmen. Das zur Erklärung warum ich ausgewandert bin.
Und jetzt zu eigentlichen Thema:
Mir ist es total egal wie das Parlament das Geld zusammenkratzt. Verschwenderisch Leben ist nun endgültig vorbei. Ich würde zu Ungunsten der FREMDEN Sozialausgaben anfangen. Sollte das noch nicht reichen, kann jeder Schweizer mit etwas höheren Lohnabgaben mithelfen. Und zu guter letzt hat die Schweiz die tiefste Mehrwertsteuer von allen Europäischen Ländern. Dort gibt es noch einigen „Speck am Knochen“!
ES SOLL MIR NIEMAND MIT DEM ARGUMENT KOMMEN, DANN MÜSSTEN AUCH DIE „ARMEN“ MIT ZAHLEN!
Durch grosses Pech und auch Dummheit bin ich aufs Alter verarmt. Also erzählt mir nichts vom jeden Monat jeden Batzen 2x umdrehen bis ich ihn ausgeben konnte.
Auch das Argument, dass nun bald alle Baby Boomer Jahrgänge in Pension gehen ist den Parlamentariern schon lange bekannt. Nur hat niemand die AHV so ausgerichtet, dass sie die Grundbedürfnisse für die Alten weiterhin abdeckt. Und jetzt ist Handeln angesagt! Ich habe ein verbrieftes Recht auf eine 13. AHV-Rente!
ps. Schauen Sie in der SRF Arena Sendung vom 08.03.2024 nach, was die beiden Parlamentarierinnen Häberli und Gutjahr in Ihrem Schlusswort in Erwägung gezogen haben. SO NICHT MEINE DAMEN!!! Auch wenn ich im Ausland lebe und niemanden zu Last fallen will bin ich nach wie vor ein SCHWEIZERBÜRGER und habe sogar 47 Jahre ins Sozialwerk einbezahlt. Deshalb muss mir meine Rente nicht gekürzt werden!!!

Bernhard Meyer Nong Chok
Bernhard Meyer Nong Chok
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.
@DP

How right you are, I am happy abroad. You can't live in Switzerland with the Swiss AHV! The biggest mistake instead of adding more% to AHV was the 2nd pillar. Breach of solidarity among the rich. It is better to save for yourself than in solidarity with the whole people even though you have taken the biggest piece of the cake during your working hours.

Wie recht Sie haben auch ich befinde mich glücklich im Ausland. Mit der Schweizer AHV lässt sich nicht Leben in der Schweiz! Der grösste Fehler statt mehr % in AHV zu schieben wurde die 2. Säule erfunden. Solidaritätsbruch der reichen. Lieber für sich sparen als Solidarisch mit dem ganzen Volk obwohl Sie zu Erwerbszeiten das grösste Stück vom Kuchen genommen haben.

YERLY
YERLY
The following contribution has been automatically translated from FR.

Before the vote, according to Maillard and the Left, everything was clear. Once accepted, nothing worked out. Only Swiss people will have to go to the checkout, including small businesses and the middle class. Our politicians, who have no experience in running a medium and small business, are completely outdated.

Avant la votation, selon Maillard et la Gauche, tout était clair. Sitôt accepté, rien ne va plus. Seuls les Suisses devront passer à la caisse, y compris les petites entreprises et la classe moyenne. Nos politiciens sans expériences de gestion d'une entreprise moyenne et petite , sont complétement dépassés.

mejrc
mejrc

I`m led to believe that the pharmaceutical industry pays little or no vat. All of this industry makes vast, & I mean vast profits into the billions ??? They will claim of course that these profits are used in part to develop new medicines, -- no doubt true but we must`nt forget the poor old CEO with his chf 5 million bonus, poor chap, how on earth does he survive ??
I did`nt want to include the chf 650 grand per year salary, -- oh why not !!
I seriously feel that some contribution from industries like this could help everybody including their employees & the rest of the population. It`s all a question of the distribution of wealth. Most of Basel is dominated by this industry. Finally we do have a tendency to dump a few million here & there in other parts of the world. I`m not saying this should cease but distribution of Swiss coffers to Swiss people might not by such a bad idea. ---- What thinks you ?? ---- Uncle John.

Peter2710
Peter2710
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.

Introduction of a wealth tax, transaction tax action and a hefty inheritance tax... Then we'll have enough to easily introduce a basic income for everyone...

It's completely simple...

👍👌🤘🙏😎🇨🇭

Einführung einer Reichensteuer, Aktion Transaktionssteuer und eine saftige Erbschaftssteuer... Dann haben wir genug, um auch noch locker das Grundeinkommen für alle einzuführen...

Ist doch völlig simpel...

👍👌🤘🙏😎🇨🇭

Philippp
Philippp
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.
@Peter2710

and suddenly the rich entrepreneurs are gone... If they are fleeced too much, they move away and with them innovative entrepreneurs who create jobs here.

Before anything is distributed, money must first be earned.

und schwupps sind die reichen Unternehmer weg... Wenn Sie zu stark geschröpft werden, wandern sie ab und damit auch innovative Unternehmer welche hier Arbeitsplätze schaffen.

Bevor verteilt wird, muss erst verdient werden.

YERLY
YERLY
The following contribution has been automatically translated from FR.

Part-time work complicates and costs a lot of business owners. "employees instead of one, organizational, monitoring and training problem. The State, the tertiary sector, are giving the wrong signal. Too many holidays, vacations, absences and big salaries are bankrupting our system. Neighboring farmers and milk producers, I see that things need to change. Better for milk producers, and, tighten the screws for the tertiary sector. Too much money for sport, for aid to developing countries, (too badly used), for this administration that is too cumbersome, not very effective. Does the army need to be modernized? Too many incompetent officers, and too paid. However, if our country is attacked, agriculture, with the rest of the current arable land, can no longer feed the people. It is necessary to reduce the population, and return to an economy that is a little more respectful of natural resources.

Le travail à temps partiel complique et coûte cher aux patrons d'entreprises. " employés au lieu d'un, problème d'organisation, de suivi et formation. L'Etat, le secteur tertiaire, donnent le mauvais signal. Trop de congés, vacances, absences et gros salaires mettent en faillite notre système. Voisin d'agriculteurs, producteurs de lait, je constate que les choses doivent changer. En mieux pour les producteurs de lait , et, serrer la vis pour le tertiaire. Trop d'argent pour le sport, l'aide aux pays en développement, ( trop mal utilisé), pour cette trop lourde administration , peu efficace. L'armée doit se moderniser ? Trop d'officiers incompétents, et trop payés. Toutefois, si notre Pays est attaqué, l' agriculture, avec le reste des terres arables actuelle, ne peut plus nourrir le peuple. Il est nécessaire de réduire la population , et revenir à une économie un peu plus respectueuse des ressources naturelles.

Martin Perret-Gentil
Martin Perret-Gentil

The people working in Switzerland and for Swiss working in Swiss firms abroad will have to pay higher taxes to cover the additional costs! In addition the age limit will have to be increased to a higher age 67 or 68!

Alois Amrein
Alois Amrein
The following contribution has been automatically translated from DE.
@Martin Perret-Gentil

The increase in the retirement age was clearly rejected at the ballot box with 75% of votes against. Your proposal is therefore not viable.

Die Erhöhung des Rentenalters wurde an der Urne deutlich abgelehnt mit 75 % Nein-Stimmen. Somit ist Ihr Vorschlag nicht brauchbar.

Alain martinoli
Alain martinoli
The following contribution has been automatically translated from FR.

AM I SWISS FROM ABROAD? IT IS NOT FOR PLEASURE THAT I HAD TO EMIGRATE LIVING IN THE CITY OF GENEVA WITH 2,400 FRANCS I WORKED UNTIL 66 YEARS OLD.IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, THE RETIREMENT AGE SHOULD BE RAISED BY LEVELS 66 YEARS OR EVEN IN A FEW YEARS 67 SO ON FOR MEN AND WOMEN SO ON FOR MEN AND WOMEN SO BY CALCULATION; THE AHV AMOUNT WILL BE GUARANTEED FOR ALL OUR GENERATIONS

JE SUIS SUISSE DE L'ETRANGER? CE N'EST PAS PAR PLAISIR QUE J'AI DU M'EXPATRIER VIVANT EN VILLE DE GENEVE AVEC 2.400 FRS AI TRAVAILLE JUSQU'A 66 ANS .A MON HUMBLE AVIS IL FAUT REHAUSSER L'AGE DE LA RETRAITE PAR PALIER 66 ANS VOIR DANS QUELQUES ANNEES 67 AINSI DE SUITE POUR HOMMES ET FEMMES AINSI PAR CALCUL; LE MONTANT AVS SERA GARANTI POUR TOUTES NOS GENERATIONS

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